Bill is Back on the Web

image Bill and his ministry have relaunched his personal website, BillGothard.com.  It features many of the over 20 books he has written over the past four years.  He continues traveling from time to time to speak.  At 82 he shows no signs of slowing down.

A new focus in a number of his books is the “gut brain”, the principle that we do more thinking and planning with our “gut” than we do with the grey matter between our ears. Scripture uses the term “reins” in the King James Version to refer to this part of our “Inner Man”, the Hebrew word for “kidneys”.  The importance of these “reins” is given in Psalm 16 where it becomes the means of God’s direction and instruction to us:

Psalms 16:7

“I will bless the Lord, who hath given me counsel:
my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.”

Jesus also refers to the “reins” or kidneys – in this case the Greek word – as distinct from our “heart”:

Revelation 2:23

“I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”

Check it out!

65 Comments

  1. David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
    May 18, 2017    

    Yes, I visited this site the other day and noticed the fresh rebuttal to the MCO guys. I remember the exasperated remark of a comrade when he butted heads with a bureaucrat. “My job is to make things happen; he only stops things from happening, which is far easier!” While Gothard has devoted himself to making things happen, MCO seems limited to stopping things from happening.

    David K

    • Moderator Moderator
      May 21, 2017    

      I have met Don Veinot, albeit briefly, and I believe he is fundamentally a sincere, godly man. He hits a lot of groups . . . very focused on the orthodox, agree with most of his opinions. I believe he has fallen into the trap of judging on the surface, lumping . . . prejudices. Plus being heavily influenced by naysayers that he interviewed almost 40 years ago. I personally fact-checked his book and was troubled by the obvious bias when it came to presenting – perhaps skewing – the facts. Accepting unproven things, someone’s word, as “fact”, things later proven false, as we have documented. The Savior is one who will not “snuff the smoking flax, break the bruised reed”, meaning . . . a complete lack of prejudice, jumping to a conclusion. Something we all seem to have a hard time doing.

  2. rob war rob war
    May 18, 2017    

    Alfred,
    His new books look to be a rehashing of his teaching. His ideas that we really are controlled by our “kidneys” based on KJV English is delving into voodoo science and taking scripture out of context. I would suggest that Bill stop trying to practice medicine without a license. His claims on his web site of helping Vets avoid suicide is not backed up with any facts. To claim that he has the answer to complex problems such as Chicago’s high crime rates is again misleading and false. And finally, the repeated assertion that Bill is “still busy”, still on the go, still looks like using busy busy busy as an avoidance. If Bill really has committed to meditation and reading the Bible, I do not see that in anything you are describing about Bill’s current activity levels of always on the go. I’m not sure why the idea of “being busy” or always on the go is so appealing to you. That’s more of a sign of being manic. Our whole culture is addicted to activity and busy and always on the go. Bill needs to stop being Martha and start being Mary and maybe sit down at the feet of Jesus for a while which is what is most important than the other.

    • Moderator Moderator
      May 21, 2017    

      His new books look to be a rehashing of his teaching.

      Worth a read :-) For my part, I have heard about everything Bill has put forward in 45 years . . . and, no, this is no rehash.

      His ideas that we really are controlled by our “kidneys” based on KJV English is delving into voodoo science and taking scripture out of context.

      Those are, of course, easy charges to make. First of all, the “reins” may be KJV, the “kidneys” is Hebrew . . . AND Greek. In the instances cited, the Lord clearly differentiates “heart” from “kidneys”, the latter in the Hebrew “dual”, clearly refering to “a pair”. Here is another one:

      Jeremiah 17:10 “I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”

      He “searches” the heart, yet “tries”, pulls on the “reins”. WHAT is this thing that is often listed with the heart, yet not the same? I have yet to find another theologian to offer an explanation.

      As to phoney science, I would encourage you to check that out.

      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/

      “Given the two brains’ commonalities, other depression treatments that target the mind can unintentionally impact the gut. The enteric nervous system uses more than 30 neurotransmitters, just like the brain, and in fact 95 percent of the body’s serotonin is found in the bowels. Because antidepressant medications called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) increase serotonin levels, it’s little wonder that meds meant to cause chemical changes in the mind often provoke GI issues as a side effect. Irritable bowel syndrome—which afflicts more than two million Americans—also arises in part from too much serotonin in our entrails, and could perhaps be regarded as a “mental illness” of the second brain.”

      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/Brain-heart-and-gut-minds/articleshow/8647137.cms

      “95 per cent of the body’s serotonin is found in the gut.”

      “The gut or the digestive system has close to 500 million nerve cells and 100 million neurons and is almost the size of a cat’s brain.”

      “Recent research reveals that there is tremendous amount of information flow from the gut to the brain via the vagus nerve and this flow is mostly one-sided.”

      In response to other comments: Bill has had tremendous results turning around troubled youth in “impossible” situations over many years. His stuff . . . works. Mostly because Jesus stuff . . . . works. Which is why he became an international leader with millions of alumni.

      And . . . he is constantly meditating on God’s Word. Hardly an interaction with him goes by without him sharing something the Lord gave him in the night seasons as he meditated. His activity is far from busy work . . . he really gets a lot done :-) You can’t publish 22 books in 3 years by just looking busy. I don’t see him that often, but have had the privilege of observing some of his activities, which certainly continue to included interactions with “movers and shakers”, including national leaders.

      • rob war rob war
        May 21, 2017    

        Are these books as in the length of “War and Peace” or are these “booklets” in the style of Kenneth Hagin Sr.? If Bill has helped “millions” of troubled youth as he claims and you are vouching for, then where are these “millions” he has helped and why aren’t these “millions” coming to his defense? However there are many blogs (not just RG) that talk about the problems of his teaching, many of them. Maybe it impresses you that he has “published” 22 booklets in three years, however, I’m not really impressed and see it as more rehashing or remixing of previous teaching and someone that really now has time on his hand to write booklets. He sounds like he hasn’t changed, just has more time on his hands to do these activities that you are impressed with. Bill’s hey day was in the 1970s. The 1980s scandal did cause the gradual backing away from him and his teachings. The ATI program was pretty isolated within Fundamentalism. I’m not sure what movers and shakers he is still involved with if any but if so, there should be names (real names) than innuendos and if there are big name (whatever that means), then they shouldn’t be afraid to say that they still support Bill. Sorry but none of that means anything to me and what would be more meaningful would be for him to spend time in solitude and real prayer.

        • Moderator Moderator
          May 21, 2017    

          The Savior’s record of people “coming to His defense” when under attack was dismal indeed. For those miraculously healed, it was 1/10th, right? In his darkest hour, Paul lamented that everybody except a handful he could name on one hand had “forsaken” him. Nothing unusual here. But I can personally attest to the constant steam of folks coming to “bear witness” to how the Lord has blessed them through Bill.

          Book lengths are not War and Peace, but enough chapters to carry a punch. They are not “booklets”. Movers and shakers are between him and them, but they sport current and former government officials, some from foreign nations, business leaders of companies you would recognize, church leaders. They seek him out. No, the environment is still not conducive to grand public associations, but the interest, respect and love are genuine.

      • rob war rob war
        May 23, 2017    

        Alfred,
        I appreciate the links but this is very new and still experimental. However, Bill with no science or medicine background should not be taking new and experimental research, combining that with a couple of Bibles verses out of context and them coming to the conclusions that if one just memorizes the Bible till the cows come home, they will change their “gut brains” which according to Bill will eliminate fear, worry etc. etc. Sorry but one can’t take verses out of Psalms which are more allegorical and poetic and turn them into cutting edge science. Bill has been preaching memorization and meditation from the start. This isn’t new material for him. One should “contemplate” and pray to draw closer to God, not to get goodies from God. But true contemplation and prayer take time and even solitude. There is a big difference between Bill’s ideas on this and the books I read from true contemplative masters and Lectio Devina which is one of the oldest ways and methods to read and contemplate scripture. Someone that spits out 22 books in 3 years is not a great sign me someone the is truly spending time alone with God. Quantity is not quality. Now I’m sure that you are going to say that all these books are high quality but anything from Bill is that to you.

        • Moderator Moderator
          May 25, 2017    

          a couple of Bibles verses out of context

          Now would be the time to clarify the out of context part :-). I am pretty sure they are in context . . .

    • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
      May 22, 2017    

      Dear sister Rob,

      Some thoughts: Suppose Bill Gothard is processing medicine without a license (whatever that means). I infer from your comment that you consider it a bad thing. Which raises a question: Why should caesar have a monopoly on who is permitted to help his subjects be well and strong in the flesh? Like me, I bet you do much to help your loved ones be strong and well, without even bothering to secure a permission slip from caesar! If you and I do it, why shouldn’t Bill Gothard?

      As for Gothard’s levels of exertion: You and I may be in spry, productive middle age, but don’t you aspire to more than a rocking chair in your eighties? If not, give me a call thirty years from now and we can rock on the front porch together reminiscing about the bad old days of Bill Gothard.

      Your rock star brother,
      David K

      • rob war rob war
        May 25, 2017    

        Bill Gothard does not have any science background, degree or experience. He has through the years given out “medical” advice to people that they should go to their doctors about, not to Bill Gothard. “Practicing medicine without a license” means just that. Medical licenses are given out by medical societies which require degrees and passing board tests and all the rest. I’m not sure why you keep bringing up the government in this. I have no clue what rocking chairs and age have to do with anything. My comments on Bill’s activity level means to me that someone that is always on the go no matter what their age borders on manic or hyperactive and is addicted to that. Someone that teaches others to meditate day and night yet is always on the go is a contradiction. I am comparing Bill’s activity levels as reported by Alfred to people that truly spend time in prayer that I would find more genuine that Bill. I would suggest to you to read the outstanding book by Cardinal Sarah “The Power of Silence against the Dictatorship of Noise”. One of the most incredible books I’ve read and it has nothing but 5 star ratings on Amazon, it is that good. I am comparing Bill to what is talked about in that book, not that I think all 80 years ought to be sitting in rocking chairs on the porch. You are mistaken.

  3. Beth Beth
    May 21, 2017    

    I pray Bill’s eyes are opened and that he can catch a glimpse of the wonder of God – red, hard covered books aside, 10,000 non-optional steps to success aside, and images of grand pursuits aside – JUST JESUS and Him crucified.

    My family has personally experienced too much heartache, frustration and double standards at the hands of the Institute both with Bill at the head and now with those who follow in his footsteps. My entire life has been flooded with Bill’s philosophies and it wasn’t until we were deeply wounded by Bill and his kingdom nearly two years that our family stopped and reevaluated so much. And we are moving forward and not back.

    I am saddened that the mighty steam engine just keeps chugging along.

    I pray God’s best for Bill and those still supporting him and his kingdom, but pray that that best includes the Spirit of Truth.

    • Moderator Moderator
      May 21, 2017    

      We are – I am – deeply sorry for what you have gone through, Beth. The strange thing is, the Bill I know would not disagree with you on most of your concerns. Regardless, were you to reach a point where you would like to speak to him face to face – or as close as feasible to that – and express your grief and concerns, that would be arranged. He has no great staff surrounding him these days.

    • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
      May 28, 2017    

      Dear Beth,

      May I contribute a perspective from a former ATI father? From your post, I infer that you are former ATI or possibly a member of a Gothard-admiring church. I have been both.

      Of course, nothing about following Jesus necessarily excludes red books, steps to success, or visionary thinking. You can also follow Jesus faithfully while rolling your eyes at all those if they are not your style. Christian liberty includes liberty to ignore Bill Gothard.

      The steam engine is only as mighty as Christians make it by their free choice.

      Sincerely,
      David K

      • Beth Beth
        June 9, 2017    

        Sir,

        I was never part of a Gothard leaning church. My dad consistently pointed us to us to seek Christ alone and evaluate everything thru the wisdom of God’s Word and the Spirit,of God within us.

        I am former ATI, left public high school as a junior to enroll over 20 years ago, though being nearly finished with formal schooling, we mostly plunged into the free labor of apprenticeships. I have amazing friendships, awesome experiences and memories, and my now family as a result – not because ATI/IBLP is good, but because GOD is.

        I (as single, then part of a staff family) have worked in a paid staff capacity with the Institute for 15 years – plus my husband’s years before we married. The Institute sells material that I personally invested hours and hours and hours developing. Yet. Bill does not know our names. And in the lawsuit requesting the removal of David Gibbs III, Bill and his lawyers made it very clear that all the Institute is (materials, alumni lists, properties) are all Bill’s life work, his STUFF. That alone was a slap in the face to every young person, every family who labored for years, whose testimonies impacted lives, whose blood, sweat and tears, whose sacrifice made all of that possible.

        Where is the humility? What about if you hang on to your life, you’ll lose it. That revealed so much to me about the mighty steam engine that my family hopped off of.

        You are correct in what you said about the liberty to ignore Bill. I won’t though. “Ignor” seems so callused and sad. I’ll move on, not join in the social media chaos regarding IBLP (have avoided it for years). BUT I will pray for Bill sincerely. And I will share my experiences and perspectives with those I interact with as the Lord directs.

        As for meeting with Bill, a part of me would love to, but it would have be at the Lord’s prompting and timing. I have forgiven Bill, he owes me and my family nothing. We are WELL.

        Blessings to ya!

        • Moderator Moderator
          June 11, 2017    

          My dad consistently pointed us to us to seek Christ alone and evaluate everything thru the wisdom of God’s Word and the Spirit,of God within us.

          You have a wise father. But, truth be told, that IS what Bill preached, even if not everyone practiced it, and even if Bill’s zeal sometimes drove him to motivate for more direct and personal commitments to his agenda. Our group of ATI Dads in Southern California felt this extremely strongly as well. As we met from month to month, we rarely even watched the provided resource from HQ, instead focusing on needs and questions of our families.

          . I have amazing friendships, awesome experiences and memories, and my now family as a result – not because ATI/IBLP is good, but because GOD is.

          I understand, but . . . Give credit where credit is due. Bill is the proverbial whipping boy these days. It is my opinion that the Lord will roll in here at some point, like Job or even Joseph, and land a lot of this. And HE will express His perspectives that may be completely different from the blogs and media and everything else. The fact that Bill built something that grew so much good is not an accident. The harshest warning Jesus ever gave was a rebuke to those that ascribed a work of the Holy Spirit . . . To Beelzebub. Because the ones claiming it simply could not accept a good explanation for the good stuff.

          That alone was a slap in the face to every young person, every family who labored for years, whose testimonies impact

          No different from a general – or a President – claiming a great victory over the bodies, blood and sweat of untold others. I work for a large corporation – in the last 6 months I have been uprooted 4 times, several on an emergency basis, to fly across the country and work day and night in a dungeon to support a needs of the company. If we prevail, the company will reap billions of dollars. If that happens, will they remember me in the press conference? :-). Not a chance.

          I too had – HAVE – a young man that has given over a decade of the prime of his life to Bill and IBLP. None of us regret it. The flow of blessing coming to him is at least as great as anything provided to Bill and the ministry.

          Point being . . . It is kind of how it works. Nobody had to participate. When the sun sets, you pray God’s work has been pushed forward, that your contribution does that. And, along the way, you KNOW that young people have been given opportunities that they would NEVER have had otherwise. Traveling the world, meeting with world leaders, saying on their resume that they developed or produced things that had a worldwide impact. That kind of experience is worth its weight in gold.

          As far as meeting with Bill, understood. But . . . Remember that Scripture is very, VERY focused on not giving out evil reports when we have not personally gone to the person to verify – in the mouth of 2-3 witnesses – the evil and the lack of repentance. Speaking evil becomes a record in heaven that we will give account of in the day of judgement. There is a time to do it, but, again, if that record does not show us loving that person enough to go to them – and I can get you in phone contact with him very, very quickly – that will be laid at our feet. I appreciate your spirit . . . And am suggesting you be one in a million and do the right thing. I had no special claim on Bill’s attention, indeed, he had no idea who I was, even with a son on staff . . . But I had a burden I could not shake. So . . . I called HQ, and Bill answered the call (this over a decade ago). He answered every question, provided me the ability to validate . . . And kept the channel open. I have gone to him with EVERY accusation that has come to my ears, taking the time to also interview every accuser that will talk to me. My wife will verify that we have never sugarcoated anything, sitting multiple times across his kitchen table in the last several years, looking him in the eye. I could not do this if I had not done that, and I am so glad I have. Beth, do the right thing.

          • Beth Beth
            June 12, 2017    

            Sir, if you personally feel that I crossed the line in my comments, I respectfully ask that you delete my thread. Sincerely, please do.

            I have avoided online debate on any public platform for nearly 3 years. And, I won’t start now. :) My mistake.

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

            May God be glorified in each of us.

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 14, 2017    

            :-) Thanks, Beth. Yes, when we enter the “platform” we suddenly have a lot more responsibility before the Lord. Few understand that. It appears that you do. The Lord bless you.

  4. rob war rob war
    May 23, 2017    

    Alfred,
    I looked over at the new web site and most of these books are under 100 pages. I think there is one at 211 and one includes a CD. A couple are fancy journal types and most of them are clearly rehashing his previous teaching. He obviously is self publishing them and not selling anywhere else. In other words, I don’t see them on Amazon and e-book format. Sorry but trying to boost his ballon isn’t working. Anyone with 40+ years of teaching can easily turn around and spit out 22 books (very short books) in 3 years. I don’t see this working for him is this is what he is trying to do and while you care for him, you don’t need to blow his trumpet.

    • Moderator Moderator
      May 25, 2017    

      IF you think that is a piece of cake, I suggest you try it :-) But I have read them – most of them – and I, again, heartily disagree with your assessments. Well assembled, beautifully adorned, clearly presented.

      • rob war rob war
        May 25, 2017    

        I’m not following what you think I think is a piece of cake. Do I think writing books is a piece of cake? For you and me no, for Bill who has written books all his life, yes. Do I think repeatedly defending Bill is a piece of cake? No, I don’t think that is. Maybe all these small books are impressive to you and some kind of sign of Bill’s greatness to you, but I really don’t at all for many of the reasons I’ve stated above.

        • Moderator Moderator
          May 31, 2017    

          Having been part of the process for several of the books, I would not characterize it as a piece of cake. Again, our perceptions differ.

          • rob war rob war
            May 31, 2017    

            How are you a part of the process? In setting up the self-publishing and computer links?

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 4, 2017    

            Helping at various times with facets beyond writing . . . Proofing, editing, images . . . Mailings :-)

          • rob war rob war
            June 4, 2017    

            That’s what I was guessing. :)

        • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
          May 31, 2017    

          For more on pieces of cake by masters, see Cal Newport’s excellent books, So Good They Can’t Ignore You, and Deep Work. When one has mastered his craft, it looks easy to outsiders. But there are still those countless hours (ten thousand, according to one source) of deliberate practice.

          David K

          • rob war rob war
            June 4, 2017    

            Yes, again 60 years of being in teaching ministry, he was able to redo or represent some of his teaching with some added new stuff in little book forms.

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 5, 2017    

            And as the only one in this discussion who has purposely studied both his “old” stuff and his “new” stuff, I get to be the best qualified to judge on that matter. And . . . each book presents new stuff. Good stuff. :-)

          • rob war rob war
            June 5, 2017    

            Well, my bucket list of reading material is pretty big and doesn’t include anything Evangelical or Fundamentalist so what one considers “good stuff” is certainly not going to match what you consider “good stuff”. I am curious if there was any effort to sell Bill’s “new books” on places like Amazon or Barnes and Noble?

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 5, 2017    

            Not at present. Probably will get some posts up on Facebook soon. Baby steps with limited staff.

          • rob war rob war
            June 5, 2017    

            Alfred,
            In reviewing again Bill’s material on the new web site you helped him redo, what appears to be “new” is his emphasis on “gut brain”. Again focussing on meditation and conquering things like fear, purpose in life, conquering depression, deep rooted faith, love and prayer are really not new themes for Bill, they just now have been repackaged with the gut brain stuff he has latched onto. He has also repackaged the so called 7 principals of the basic seminar plus his character and command book. Again, 2 of these books are fancy journals. The art work and illustrations are also similar to his previous books and materials. I don’t see how the book “Our purpose in Life” is anything new but to say “pray for everyone”. Ok, what is really earth shattering new about that? Bill always had a big emphasis on meditation, even “day and night”, except now it appears to be mixed with his “gut brain” ideas. He has two books about fear alone which makes me wonder if fear is some big issues for Bill himself. So now his focus isn’t “bitterness” but “fear” and has attached that to everything. To say in one book (or imply) that dementia is caused by lack of gratefulness is just beyond the pale. Likewise stating that adrenaline addictions are behind diseases like cancer etc. is again practicing medicine without a license. I’m just gleaning all of this from the short explanations on Bill’s web site that you helped him set up. So what looks to be “new” is that Bill has replaced fear instead of bitterness as the bogey man for the causes for a number of physical illnesses. In the consuming fire book, Bill makes the same charge he always has that physical diseases and illnesses are caused by us or God trying to get our attention so these things are allowed by God. That isn’t new at all and is basically pretty horrific theology and thinking.

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 5, 2017    

            To say in one book (or imply) that dementia is caused by lack of gratefulness is just beyond the pale.

            Au contraire! Check this out: http://www.alzheimers.net/2-01-16-negative-thoughts-affect-risk-of-dementia/

            Likewise stating that adrenaline addictions are behind diseases like cancer etc. is again practicing medicine without a license.

            You love experts way too much.

            For the record, I had nothing to do with the latest web revision. :-)

          • rob war rob war
            June 5, 2017    

            One more thing Alfred, since a number of these books focus on health, has Bill ever taken his theories to an independent physician (non-bill fan) for an independent review to confirm a number of Bill’s allegations and conclusions?

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 5, 2017    

            Again, the world worships experts in ways we should only worship our living God. Psalms 119:99-100. “I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.”

            Do you believe that . . . That you can understand more than the experts if you love and obey God’s Word?

            2 Chronicles 16:12. “And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the Lord, but to the physicians.”

          • rob war rob war
            June 5, 2017    

            Nice try Alfred but the study about “negative” attitudes from Yale was very specific. The negative attitudes was about aging and what people thought about the aging process and those that “negatively” viewed aging seemed to have more dementia etc. It was about AGING not about ingratitude which according the book’s blip, that ingratitude can cause dementia etc. If Bill is using some experimental study like this to boost his conclusions and you agree with that, then God help you. If you think people “worship” experts then that same accusation can be levied against you in that you worship Bill who is trying to make himself an expert in medical problems which he is not at all. If someone wants to build a bridge, do they consult someone like Bill that will quote Bible verses at them or should they go to “experts” in engineering and math to build a bridge. That true about a ton of things. Again the Yale study which was only 2 studies talked people’s negative views about aging and getting old and Bill (or you or whoever) want to twist that into trying to make some case that ingratitude is going to cause or the reason for dementia is bordering on voodoo science again.

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 6, 2017    

            There are current studies on negativity and dementia. I presented one promoted by the Alzheimers Assicuation as I would have thought that would carry weight with you. Based on what I have run across in the media in the months since Bill published made me sure I could easily find corroboration. I would be glad to find more, if I felt it would have any effect on your perspectives. Bottom line: Bill is far from the unsupported quack you make him out to be.

            Scripture has nothing to say about bridge building, so bad example. Pick a topic that is real.

      • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
        May 28, 2017    

        Back when I served as officer in charge of ALERT basic training in the Northwoods, Bill Gothard would sometimes come up and speak at the graduation ceremony. Commanding officer Ron Fuhrman once asked Gothard how he could speak so well in public with such brief preparation. Bill quietly replied, “Ron, I have been preparing that message for more than forty years.”

        As Bill Gothard has been writing for more than sixty years now, the market will judge how worthy the publications are to buy and read.

        David K

        • rob war rob war
          May 31, 2017    

          Thank-you, whether you meant it or not, you have just confirmed my opinion on this. And yes, the market will determine the success of these “books”. Considering that they are self-published and only sold on his web site and not on any major book selling website like Amazon or Barnes and Noble and not in any e-book format, I have a feeling that this is not going to be big.

          • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
            June 5, 2017    

            Hi sis,

            Welcome back to our fields of friendly strife.

            I didn’t have any intention except an over-statement of the obvious. Mr. Market is a ruthless regulator. If something offered to the public resonates with human needs or desires, it will thrive. Otherwise, not. I have authored no books nor taught any seminars, so I can’t fathom what it must take to connect with people. But Bill Gothard has and does.

            What he has created for the public has been very widely received in decades past. I don’t know whether that season has come and gone. But Gothard’s products have been well enough received to appear on the radar screen of MCO and other opponents. It follows that Gothard’s products are significant enough for enemies to bestir themselves.

            Your brother,
            David K

          • rob war rob war
            June 6, 2017    

            Yes, certainly in the 1970’s, Bill’s material and teaching was widely received and used and promoted. After the 1980 scandal with his brother broke open, there was a quiet backing away from him and this is from direct observation from that time period of my own. Many of his ideas and views are and were widely copied and used and reused. I think he refocused his efforts with the homeschooling program which also as limited appeal and leads more to an isolated group of people. I remember in that Church I was involved with at that time, before the scandal broke open, there was no critical disagreements with anything Bill taught. Afterwards, the elders of the church spoke about some of their disagreements with things like divorce and music. It seems like the 1980 scandal open the door for a more critical review and even ability to disagree with Bill Gothard. Again, this is my own direct observation from that time period. Fast forward to today, I really don’t think Bill has any credibility with the wider Evangelical community that use to follow him in the hey day of the 1970s.

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 8, 2017    

            Paul had lost all credibility with his converts and churches by the time he was executed:

            2 Timothy 1:15 “This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me”

            That being the picture of complete success, I suspect that Bill ending his days in similar manner is not necessarily an expression of failure. As you said, the scandal – in which Bill was guilty of insensitivity, not reacting quickly and firmly enough – was used to allow those that wanted to question him . . . to do so. That is actually a pattern of a normal harvest in spiritual things:

            Matthew 13:47-48 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.”

            In the Savior’s case:

            John 6:60, 66-67
            “Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? . . .
            From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, — Will ye also go away?”

            You can see why such things may not be that big of a concern.

          • rob war rob war
            June 9, 2017    

            Alfred,
            Lets look at each of the three verses you just quoted. First of all, in II Timothy, St. Paul was writing from prison, his reference to “being deserted” was referring to people leaving him due to being in prison waiting to be executed. It has nothing to do with people “deserting” his teaching. The John 6 and those that left Jesus was due to Jesus stating about “eating His body and drinking His blood”. Again and based on how one reads Jesus here, which at least the Catholic view is literal, would have been more of a shocking statement to the Jewish ears of that time because the Jewish understanding of the passover and bread would have been seen as Jesus equating Himself to God. Lastly, I’m not sure how Matthew 13 fits in with the other two since the reference of a net and sorting between good and bad is about final judgement, not people leaving Jesus. None of these verses are based on people leaving or backing away from someone due to sex scandals. St. Paul’s situation was being in prison and he could have been deserted by the simple fact that the other’s lives could have been at risk. The John 6 which was early in Jesus ministry was about people not accepting that Jesus is God and the perfect passover lamb. Matthew 13 is about final judgement when the good and bad are finally sorted out. None of these are due to hidden and secret sex scandals that came out and exposed hypocrisy of Bill and his teaching. Once people saw that what was being taught in having high moral character and having someone involved having sex with secretaries under Bill’s nose, they started to back out and move on.

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 11, 2017    

            First of all, in II Timothy, St. Paul was writing from prison, his reference to “being deserted” was referring to people leaving him due to being in prison waiting to be executed. It has nothing to do with people “deserting” his teaching.

            Bill is in prison! And someone who is your “father”, having seen you saved or growing strongly in the Lord . . . You don’t abandon them when they are in their lowest point unless you have reason to find fault with them. That is what Job’s three friends did. Because, truth be told, NOBODY but Jesus is without fault.

            John 6

            Compared to a great many things that Jesus said, including hating family to follow Him, the statement was not, alone, worth the majority of disciples turning and leaving. What offends people is the demand of a commitment that, basically, means I lose my life . . . My stuff for sure. THAT is where He was going. Regardless, most folks, when they realized what following Jesus REALLY meant . . . Left.

            None of these verses are based on people leaving or backing away from someone due to sex scandals.

            Not so sure. Nothing would evoke the following . . . Like a sex scandal:

            1 Corinthians 4:13. “Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.”

            having someone involved having sex with secretaries under Bill’s nose, they started to back out and move on.

            That makes no sense. EVERY godly organization has had its issues, even the inner 12 of the Savior. The question is whether it is rejected as sin . . . And dealt with. Most folks have lived long enough to keep that in perspective. Sinners sin . . . Even some close to the light.

  5. Goldfish Goldfish
    May 30, 2017    

    Bill’s teaching over the years has been refreshing and insightful to me because he was not hindered by the paralysis of professionalism. He didn’t buy into the idea that you can’t do accurate exegsis without a seminary education or you are not able to do a good job home schooling your children without a degree in education, etc. He would not discount the professionals and he had close contact with many of them from various disciplines. He believed the Scriptures to be true and their teachings were to be chosen over the opinions of men when there was disagreement. Creation vs. evolution would be a stark example of man’s opinion vs. God’s truth. Several men I graduated from seminary with stated going to the basic seminar added to their understanding of the Scriptures and helped round out their ministries. I have read a few of Bill’s latest books and he is spot on. Moses, Paul and Jesus had their critics, some of them were hateful and vicious. Those less than gracious individuals didn’t stop the progress of the gospel then and they won’t hinder Bill’s contribution to the kingdom now.

  6. Joel Joel
    May 30, 2017    

    I looked over Mr. Gothard’s new website, and I was wondering: is he still teaching the Basic Seminar in person? I ask because his website says “What I Really Teach in the Basic Seminar” (present tense).

    Thanks!

    • Moderator Moderator
      May 31, 2017    

      Bill has fronted a number of hour long seminars in the last 4 years, but at 82 I suspect his days of 32 hours on his feet in a week are long over. :-). But the seminar lives on, online. So he keeps preaching. https://embassymedia.com/media/session-01-how-trace-problems-root-causes

      • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
        June 5, 2017    

        I have found a lot of top-quality material on Embassy Media, espially the old greats from the Knoxville ATI conferences. Ron Dunn, Roger Magnuson, Keith Daniel, Otto Koning and others are there.

        David K

  7. rob war rob war
    June 6, 2017    

    Alfred,
    I’ll have more time later to discuss the dementia book but I quickly wanted to point out to you that Ronald Reagan was probably one of the most positive outlooking person and presidents I know of and yet, he ended his life “loosing his mind” and memory. While this is just a quick counterpoint, I again want to point out to you that making broad based diagnosis of why people get arthritis, dementia, cancer etc to simplistic cause and effects that Bill has done as his MOO through-out all of his years of teaching is simply again practicing medicine without a license. For every so called example Bill may try to point to as “proof” of his ideas, there are just as many that don’t and Ronald Reagan would be a prime example. The man that said it’s still “morning in America” and we are still a “city on a hill” is not someone that is negative about himself or his future. The Bible has more directly to say about immorality affecting our bodies, abuse of alcohol, and gluttony than about twisting people’s normal emotions as the reason for physical problems. All all those things certainly cause serious health problems for too many people. If the biggest killer in the US is heart disease and the biggest adult disabler is stroke, what one eats has more to do with those two than anything Bill is coughing up in his current books.

    • Moderator Moderator
      June 8, 2017    

      I was just discussing with my wife a relative that lived into her 80s . . . smoking like a chimney. Exceptions do not disprove cause and effect relationships. Some of us must get dementia, being in our genes. Others are negative and avoid it. But even the Alzheimers association was impressed with the study I cited. There IS something to it.

      • rob war rob war
        June 9, 2017    

        I read the study, the negative was very specific about attitudes about aging. The Alzheimers web sties clearly state that there is no know one cause of Alzheimers and dementia. Yes, the study is interesting and maybe there will be more research in this area. This was a 25 year long study and others are going to take time as well. Bill’s teaching was very cause and effect. But in many of the problems he wanted to make simplistic root causes, and there for many things is not one simplistic “root” cause but a conglomeration of many things fitting together in not just health but relationships and emotions.

        • Moderator Moderator
          June 11, 2017    

          At least acknowledge that Bill’s assertion is backed up by at least one – and there have been several – good study. Making it far more than speculation and quackery.

          • rob war rob war
            June 11, 2017    

            I cannot acknowledge that because the study only found that many Alzheimer patients seem to have held negative attitudes about the aging process, nothing more and there would need to be more studies on why or how and what the connection is. The little blip that you probably helped Bill write or put up in order to sell his book on this focused on “gratitude” as the cause of dementia, not a poor view about getting old. They are not the same thing and if Bill used this study to try and support his theories in this book, then he is manipulating evidence for his ideas. This wasn’t an all conclusive study and not a for sure thing that one can use it and then turn around and state that negative attitudes cause dementia.

    • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
      June 11, 2017    

      Dear Rob,

      That’s a witty choice of words, if it was intentional. You said that poor diet causes disease, in contrast to what Bill Gothard coughs up. Nice pun.

      As for substance, have you seen any conclusive evidence that diet causes heart disease and stroke? Conventional wisdom agrees with you, but causation is difficult to prove. The case against dietary cholesterol seems to get weaker and weaker just during our own lifetimes.

      Salud,
      David K

      • rob war rob war
        June 12, 2017    

        My suggestion is to visit American Heart association web site as well as stroke prevention web sites. I have to yearly be tested on these issues at my employment. The focus on diet isn’t just cholesterol but more with saturated fats, high sugar content, high salt and preservatives and lack of physical activities. As to the wit, I guess I’ll let you ponder that yourself.

        • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
          June 17, 2017    

          Yes, I visited the AHA site. I’ll give them credit for being much more balanced than I expected. They didn’t just promote statins and low cholesterol. They actually warned against neurological problems from statins and low cholesterol. It was no surprise to find a health trade-off like that, but it was a little surprising to see that warning on on the AHA site. But I did not see anything I would call conclusive proof. Things are depressed more in terms of probability than proof.

          Your brother,
          David K

  8. David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
    June 10, 2017    

    I have not read any of the new Gothard books, but the topic of moral conduct affecting our health reminds me of Gulliver’s visit to the houynymns. These noble creatures were immune from disease. This fascinated Gulliver, who was a medical doctor. Gulliver came to realize that men make themselves sick by their gluttony and misconduct.

    As for practicing medicine without a permission slip from caesar, why should caesar have a monopoly on dispensing wellness?

    Salud,
    David K

    • Moderator Moderator
      June 11, 2017    

      Agreed. Funny how the stamp of imperfect, fallible, even unrighteous people somehow makes something God’s idea. 1 Cor. 6 says that we, believers, will “judge angels”. We are qualified to correctly decide the punishment and fate of those amazing and wise beings. As Paul points out after that . . . That qualifies us to speak to things now, in this life. Nobody is talking nuclear physics here . . . But the human body, designed by God, IS something where wisdom is given, both practically and through the means of Holy Writ.

    • rob war rob war
      June 11, 2017    

      Well, I don’t see anyone else doing any better in dispensing wellness but there are plenty of crack pots that try.

      • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
        June 16, 2017    

        Dear Rob,
        Of course you see dispensing of wellness all the time, and not just by caesar’s cronies. Parents wipe their kids’ fevered brows. Spouses nurse ill spouses back to health. Ancient folk wisdom recommends an apple a day to keep away you-know-who. Why shouldn’t Bill Gothard join the parade of non-crony health advisors?

        Sometimes even your online penpal recommends T-Tapp! For a hemiplegic, you should see how strong and buff I am! Ha!

        Moving right along,
        David K

  9. rob war rob war
    June 11, 2017    

    A final thought on Bill’s bonaza of writing books after IBLP. One view which is probably yours Alfred (and those loyal supporters) is that Bill was able to do so under divine inspiration. The other extreme of that would be Bill wrote under diabolical influence. The third which is mine is that Bill used his new found time on his hands with 60+years of teaching and writing to reformulate and rewrite with his gut brain ideas. I’ll finish with this quote from Thomas Merton who wrote 70 books and poems in his lifetime. “This afternoon, I tried to be as quite as I could for two hours in the vault (this is Good Friday) and came but with the conclusion that writing is something very low and insignificant, and that I, who seem to have become identified with writing, am also low and insignificant”. (from Sign of Jonas one of his earliest books). He began to write in obedience to his superiors who saw his talent and yet it was a struggle for him in the beginning which is what Sign of Jonas documents. Later, he went on to 70 books. I am not seeing or sensing any humility from Bill in writing books or at least with you in promotion of his newer material. Merton’s attitude of humility is the better here.

    • Moderator Moderator
      June 11, 2017    

      Try to find the best you can :-). Seems like Bill can’t win. Not aimed specifically at you, but I am continually reminded of this exchange:

      Matthew 11:16-19
      “But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.”

      • rob war rob war
        June 11, 2017    

        There is a lot of depth in that exchange by Jesus. It should make anyone stop and think. Jesus was making the comparison to the religious leaders of that day and the comparison is basically calling them a bunch of spoiled brats. Not really a compliment. They didn’t like John the Baptist because he was severe in his ascetic practices and they didn’t like Jesus because He wasn’t the ascetic (He ate and drink and hung out with the crowd). They were stuck on themselves and saw wrong with anyone that wasn’t with them and their little group. John the Baptist and Jesus were not of their little group. “The Pharisees rejected God because He was not a Pharisee. The Pharisees would have nothing to do with God because God turned out to be not make in their own image” (Thomas Merton)

        • Moderator Moderator
          June 14, 2017    

          That is the basic idea I see. Nobody but they were right. Even the holy Son of God failed. They had a little echo chamber support group . . . From which they mocked and judged everyone outside hat didn’t join them. The endless attacks on Bill remind me of that . . . Is all. All of his teaching has problems, never had a truly pure act or motive. “Wisdom is justified of her children”.

          • rob war rob war
            June 14, 2017    

            I honestly don’t think you really mean “the Holy Son of God failed”. God doesn’t fail, humans do. In all fairness, I don’t think you really mean what you just wrote.

          • Moderator Moderator
            June 19, 2017    

            Thank you for letting me correct that. In the eyes of “the experts” He failed . . . Meaning . . . EVERYBODY came short of their wishes or expectations. He did NOT fail.

        • David S. Knecht Sr. David S. Knecht Sr.
          June 16, 2017    

          No wonder you enjoy reading Merton. He may have a low view of his own writing, but that looked pretty good to me.

          Over and out,
          David K

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